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Every episode
People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast
30 episodes
Can computers detect lies better than humans?, with Bennett Kleinberg
Aug 11, 2026 · 1 hr 1 min
Can machines spot a lie better than we can? I talk with psychology researcher Bennett Kleinberg, whose work brings together psychology, machine learning, natural-language processing, and deception detection. We explore why humans are bad at identifying lies, which verbal clues may reveal deception—and why nervousness is often misleading. Bennett explains how liars use detail and how level of detail can be a clue to deception), the fact that deception usually involves a good amount of truth in th…
Inside a Scientology e-meter auditing session, with Chris Shelton
Aug 1, 2026 · 1 hr 29 min
Former Scientologist Chris Shelton spent thousands of hours using the e-meter to "audit" fellow members of the Church—but what does the device actually measure, and why do Scientologists trust it as an infallible guide to the truth? Chris takes us inside a typical auditing session, explaining the personal questions auditors ask, the needle movements they watch for, and what they believe those reactions reveal. We compare the e-meter with the polygraph, explore how relentless questioning can prod…
How Pete Blair scored 100% in a deception detection study
Jul 24, 2026 · 1 hr 9 min
In a 2014 deception detection study, Pete Blair made 33 judgments—and got all 33 right. That paper was titled “Expertise in deception detection involves actively prompting diagnostic information rather than passive behavioral observation.” I ask Pete about what the factors were in him getting 100% accuracy in that study, and we talk about the interplay between verbal and nonverbal behavior. Pete talks about the importance of context and domain knowledge in making high-confidence judgments, and h…
Behaviorally, poker and interrogations are very different
Jul 10, 2026 · 54 min
Zach Elwood, author of influential books on poker tells and host of the People Who Read People podcast, joins The Deductionist podcast for a wide-ranging conversation about what we can and can't learn from human behavior. Drawing on his years studying poker tells and consulting for high-stakes players, Zach explains why reading behavior in structured games like poker is fundamentally different from reading people in real-world situations like interrogations, negotiations, or everyday conversatio…
Understanding defenses of the polygraph, with David Goldberg
Jul 1, 2026 · 1 hr 26 min
Polygraphs are a controversial tool in criminal investigations: critics argue they're too unreliable to trust, while proponents say that, even if they’re not perfect, they nonetheless can play a valuable role in helping uncover the truth. I talk with veteran polygraph examiner David Goldberg (executiveprotectiongrp.com), who has conducted more than 20,000 examinations over a 30-year career and who believes that, in the hands of a highly skilled examiner, polygraphs are far more accurate than mos…
The push for science-based interrogation approaches, with Maria Hartwig and Christian Cory
Jun 20, 2026 · 58 min
In real or fictional criminal interrogation scenes, you've probably seen the approach where police barge in and confront the suspect with the evidence, trying to get them to crack and give a confession. In this talk, Maria Hartwig and Christian Cory explain why that doesn’t work well, and why a strategic use of evidence (SUE) approach, involving planning out the reveal of evidence, gets much better results. Maria is a well known researcher and trainer of criminal interviewing, and Christian is a…
Reading behavior in The Traitors and other social deduction games, with Zack Davies (UK season 2)
Jun 13, 2026 · 1 hr 5 min
Zack Davies was a standout contestant on the popular reality TV show The Traitors (UK, season 2). The Traitors is what is called a social deduction game, similar to the games Werewolf and Mafia. In this talk we examine psychological factors and behavioral clues that can shape players' perceptions and decisions in this game. We discuss how friendships and rivalries can negatively affect people’s judgment. We talk about behavioral clues; for example, why it is that unusually expressive, exuberant…
How digital investigators expose lies and find truth, with OSINT pro Craig Silverman
Jun 5, 2026 · 1 hr 3 min
How do digital/open-source investigators uncover hidden truths and expose lies? World-renowned digital sleuth Craig Silverman shares important lessons he's learned from years spent exposing scammers, fake-news operators, fraud networks, and online deception. We discuss: the techniques investigators use to track anonymous people through seemingly insignificant clues; why stepping away from a case can be more productive than obsessively chasing leads; and how confirmation bias can derail even expe…
Secret Service agent on building rapport, reading people, and polygraphs | Brad Beeler
May 30, 2026 · 1 hr 11 min
How much can we really learn from people's words and behavior—and where do we risk fooling ourselves? In this talk, former Secret Service agent and polygraph examiner Brad Beeler explores the practical realities of interrogations, deception detection, statement analysis, and reading people in high-stakes situations. We discuss why confirmation bias is such a threat to good investigations, why many popular body-language claims are overstated, and how investigators might make use of subtle behavio…
How recruiters spot fake, deceptive job applicants, with Dani Tepedjiyska
May 15, 2026 · 58 min
What if some job applicants aren’t actually trying to get jobs — but are instead trying to infiltrate companies? Dani Tepedjiyska, who works with the recruitment firm Michael Page, describes a strange and growing world of fake resumes, organized applicant networks, AI-assisted interviews, and suspicious staffing firms that may be helping fraudulent actors gain access to banks and other financial institutions. We talk about the real-world signs she’s seen while interviewing deceptive candidates —…
Interrogation trainer shares what really works (and why "reading people" doesn't)
May 5, 2026 · 1 hr 8 min
Many people think police interrogations often involve reading body language and catching “tells” of deception. Interrogation trainer Mark Anderson explains how much of what’s taught about using nonverbal behavior in high-stakes interviews is based on myth, not science—and how a faulty focus on “reading people” can actually damage interviews. We dig into why stress behaviors don’t signal guilt, how confirmation bias warps investigations, and why “reading people” is far less useful than most belie…
How do visa officers read behavior?, with Travis Feuerbacher
Apr 26, 2026 · 60 min
Visa officers make life-changing decisions in minutes—often after just a brief conversation through a glass window. I talk with former U.S. visa officer Travis Feuerbacher (ZFvisa.com) about what really goes into those rapid judgments. How much do behavior and “gut feelings” actually matter? Can anyone reliably read honesty or deception under that kind of pressure? And what happens when cultural differences, personality differences, or just plain anxiety get mistaken for something more suspiciou…
Are you seeking status without even knowing it? Cards Against Humanity's David Pinsof thinks so
Apr 21, 2026 · 1 hr 17 min
What if much of human behavior—from everyday interactions to politics and culture—is driven by hidden “status games” we’re all playing without realizing it? In this talk with Cards Against Humanity co-creator and evolutionary psychologist David Pinsof, we explore his provocative idea that status-seeking is a fundamental human motive—but one wrapped in a paradox: we all want status, yet seeking it too openly makes us lose it, forcing us to pursue it in subtle, strategic, and often unconscious way…
MK Ultra: Fact vs fiction, with Stephen Kinzer
Mar 31, 2026 · 52 min
Did MK Ultra actually accomplish anything impressive in brainwashing- and mind-control-related areas? Did the US government, as some people claim, create "Manchurian candidates," who would kill on command? In this episode, I talk with Stephen Kinzer, author of “Poisoner in Chief,” a book about the head of MK Ultra, Sidney Gottlieb. We discuss the strange, disturbing reality of MK Ultra—and the many exaggerations made about it over the years. While pop culture and deceptive gurus (like Chase Hugh…
From body language bullshit to behavior science, with Vincent Denault
Mar 12, 2026 · 1 hr 7 min
Vincent Denault once believed he was learning how to read people’s hidden thoughts through analyzing body language. As a young lawyer in Quebec, he attended behavior analysis and “synergology” trainings that promised the ability to detect lies and determine hidden thoughts from small gestures and movements. But after digging into the research, he realized much of what he’d been taught wasn't true. In this talk, Vincent describes that journey and we explore how body-language myths spread through…
Con man Chase Hughes' actual military record versus his grandiose claims
Mar 3, 2026 · 1 hr 29 min
How does someone who makes wildly grandiose claims about mind control, interrogation mastery, neuroscience credentials, and secret military psychology operations gain more than 1.5 million YouTube subscribers—and land appearances on shows like Joe Rogan and Diary of a CEO—without anyone vetting his story? I’m joined by ex-CIA officer and fraud-exposer Kent Clizbe (kentclizbe.com), and we take a hard look at Chase Hughes’ actual Navy record and compare it to his many lies, exaggerations, and ambi…
Epstein Hysteria! Moral panic and dumb overreactions from Kyle Kulinski, others
Feb 26, 2026 · 29 min
The Epstein files release has resulted in many people seeming to lose their minds: engaging in moral panic, having hysterical overreactions, filtering for worst-case interpretations of ambiguous data, images, and emails. Using a video from the political influencer Kyle Kulinski (who has 2M+ YouTube subscribers) as a case study, I examine how ambiguous snippets—like an audio clip of people seemingly talking about killing deer — get instantly, emotionally interpreted by Kyle and others as highly s…
Is your existence improbable? Or inevitable? Exploring universalism with Arnold Zuboff
Feb 21, 2026 · 1 hr 27 min
Many view the fact that they are here, experiencing the world, as something insanely improbable... but what if it were instead entirely inevitable? The philosopher Arnold Zuboff walks us through a mind-bending argument, which he calls universalism (aka open individualism), where the improbability of your existence vanishes. It doesn’t matter which sperm met which egg, or how your ancestors got together, or how anything at all in the past unfolded, because wherever there is first-person experienc…
Waco negotiator Gary Noesner shares tips on de-escalation and reading behavior
Feb 13, 2026 · 1 hr 3 min
What actually works to avoid violent outcomes when someone is armed, emotional, and on the edge? I talk with former FBI chief hostage negotiator Gary Noesner, author of Stalling for Time, about the psychology of high-stakes crisis situations — including lessons from Waco (part of which he was present for) and other cases Gary explains the “paradox of power” (why pushing aggressively often backfires), and why most so-called hostage situations are really emotional crises, not bargaining contests.…
Pro negotiator discusses the “power of nice” and reading body language | with Andres Lares
Feb 9, 2026 · 1 hr 7 min
What actually makes negotiations work—and why do so many “tough” tactics backfire? In this episode, Zach talks with professional negotiator Andres Lares about why the most effective deals rarely come from trying to win at all costs. Drawing from sports contracts, Fortune 500 negotiations, and decades of real-world experience, Andres explains the “power of nice,” the importance of looking for creative win-win approaches, and why public posturing can kill agreements. They also dig into the hype ar…
FBI agent discusses interrogation tactics, body language, the lie detector, and more
Jan 31, 2026 · 1 hr 25 min
A talk with Eric Robinson, a recently retired Federal Bureau of Investigation agent and former pastor, about what actually works in real-world interrogations—and what doesn’t. Drawing on 24 years in the FBI, Eric explains why techniques like friendliness and rapport are so powerful, discusses the use of silence to induce information-sharing, and talks about the importance of asking only a single question at a time. Eric also explains why he thinks nonverbal “body language” cues are not useful in…
Some scoff at political bridge-building efforts. What are they missing?
Jan 27, 2026 · 45 min
A talk with Doug Teschner and Beth Malow—co-authors of the book Beyond the Politics of Contempt—about an aspect of bridge-building/depolarization-aimed work that rarely gets discussed: the backlash. We dig into the criticisms and skepticism that people on both “sides” throw at bridge-building efforts—claims that it’s naive, weak, morally compromised, or even a form of complicity with the "bad guys." We talk about why contempt can feel justified and righteous, how protest and resistance can unint…
A Fox News fraud: How CIA/intel "expert" Wayne Simmons was exposed by Kent Clizbe
Jan 21, 2026 · 49 min
A talk with former CIA officer Kent Clizbe about his exposure of Wayne Simmons, a man who spent more than a decade on Fox News posing as a CIA counterterrorism expert—but who was a fraud and serial liar. And we talk about how that case mirrors the case of Chase Hughes, who claims to know advanced, top-secret techniques and intelligence, and who has gained many fans, but who is a clear fraud. Topics discussed: how Kent met Wayne Simmons; why he suspected rather quickly he was a fake; how Kent’s i…
The psychology of narcissistic abuse—and how it can continue after separation
Jan 16, 2026 · 53 min
A talk with Jackie Miller, host of the podcast “Out of Crazy Town: Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist.” Jackie shares her personal story of escaping a coercively controlling, psychologically abusive marriage—and how that led her to try to help others navigating similar nightmarish situations. We talk about how these relationships evolve from subtle manipulation into abusive domination and control; and we talk about the mind-bending psychology of narcissistic abuse—projection, gaslighting, smea…
Body language lies: The pseudoscience and silliness spread by alleged behavior "experts"
Jan 9, 2026 · 1 hr 17 min
Can you really tell who’s lying just by watching their body language? Are there any practical takeaways you can reliably and regularly get from studying nonverbal behavior in interrogation/interview settings? In this episode, I, Zach Elwood (author of some popular books on poker tells) talk to Chris Shelton, host of Speaking of Cults (speakingofcults.com). We take a hard look at the booming industry of alleged “body language experts,” behavior-based deception detection, and viral interrogation a…
How a news site uses social network mapping to reduce polarization
Jan 3, 2026 · 1 hr 3 min
Aemula is a new kind of news media platform that’s trying to tackle a big problem: the fact that the structure of our news media leads to various outcomes that amplify toxic polarization. Instead of the usual “engagement = more exposure” logic, Aemula flips the incentives. You read an article, then you tap a simple Support or Disagree button — and those signals build a living map of Aemula’s community: a 3D social network graph showing how readers, writers, and articles relate (without slapping…
Does contempt for Trump voters help Trump? Are we in a feedback loop?
Nov 23, 2025 · 38 min
For many people, Trump represents a uniquely dangerous figure in American history. But what if the contemptuous, maximally pessimistic ways many people talk about Trump and Republicans help put more "wind in the sails" of polarized, polarizing leaders like Trump? Are we in a self-reinforcing feedback loop of contempt and anger? In this talk for Richard Davies' series How Do We Fix it? (www.howdowefixit.me) Zachary Elwood argues that excessive contempt for each other is the problem underlying all…
The Orgasmic Meditation story: Origins and psychology of OneTaste and Nicole Daedone
Nov 18, 2025 · 1 hr 14 min
I talk with journalist Ellen Huet, whose new book Empire of Orgasm digs into the strange origins and evolution of Nicole Daedone and OneTaste, and goes into more detail than the Netflix doc titled Orgasm Inc. We talk about where OneTaste’s orgasmic meditation practices actually came from, how Daedone built a movement around it, and how that movement shifted into something far more high-control and ultimately criminal. Topics discussed include: What counts as coercion when adults voluntarily join…
Can behavior clusters help determine a lie? Tim Levine on deception detection science
Nov 13, 2025 · 53 min
Many people think there are telltale signs of lying — shifty eyes, nervous fidgeting, maybe a quick smile — that can give someone away to trained observers. But according to decades of research, that’s a myth. Still, some scientists push back on that consensus. A recent paper by well-known researcher David Matsumoto (of the company Humintell) argues that combinations of nonverbal cues might be highly useful for revealing deception. In this episode, I talk with deception researcher Tim Levine, au…
Tracking people over terrain: What's real, what's fiction?
Oct 26, 2025 · 51 min
Have you ever wondered how tracking people actually works? You’ve probably seen a lot of Hollywood depictions of how law enforcement track people over external terrain, and maybe you’ve wondered what’s real and what’s exaggerated. I talk with Rob Speiden, an instructor in what’s called “sign cutting." Rob breaks down real search-and-rescue, law-enforcement, and military use-cases; why “broken twigs” and deep foot prints are actually weak evidence; how pros actually determine the age of sign usin…
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